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New Ryzen on previous gen (B450) motherboard isn't always that easy.  

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Olle P
(@olle-p)
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July 24, 2019 04:42  

I had since late last year plans to get my son an upgrade to his computer using 3rd gen Ryzen. (I've been using a Ryzen 5 1600 in my own computer for the last two years.)

Now the new generation is out and it was time to decide what to buy. I opted for a Ryzen 5 3600X and, based on many reviewers' recommendations, an MSI B450 Tomahawk motherboard.

The motherboard (as expected) wasn't updated to the latest BIOS when it arrived, so I used the built in function to do a BIOS update without the need for anything but power and a USB stick.

After the update process the motherboard still didn't recognice the new CPU. ☹️

Looking for advice online I was directed to a thread on Reddit where it became clear that I wasn't alone with this problem. That motherboard model was/is known to have issues with some individual CPUs from the Matisse family.
A newer Beta BIOS was made available and suggested, together with further advice on how to install the BIOS.

Doing a proper installation of the new BIOS:
Reformat the USB stick and only have the new BIOS file on it.
Remove power and battery from the mobo for some time before installing the BIOS onto the board.

That seemed to fix the problem. The CPU was properly identified and everything ran the way it should(*)...
... for about five days. Then the mobo again refused to accept the CPU, and trying the whole BIOS process again, repeatedly, didn't help. 😣

We've switched back to the older motherboard and CPU in my son's computer to keep it running.

Next thing for me to do is to go through testing my older CPU on the new motherboard and the new CPU on my older motherboard (a Gigabyte AB350 Gaming 3) to see if I can isolate which part is causing the problem.

Anyone else with similar experiences?

(*) Compared to the Ryzen 5 1600 the 3600X is 30-45% faster, depending on which benchmark is being used.


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Ype
 Ype
(@ype)
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July 24, 2019 05:27  

Hi Olle P

Sad to hear that you didn't have a great out of the box experience.
With my x370 board I updated to a BIOS version that supports 3rd gen Ryzen CPU's.
I swapped out my 1600x for a 3600 and it just worked.

...

I presume you bought your son this motherboard:
https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/B450-TOMAHAWK
And that you are using BIOS 7C02v19

Trying a first gen CPU on the B450 board sounds like an excellent idea.
So does trying your 3600 on your x350 board.
Don't forget to flash a compatible BIOS and trying that with the 1600 first. 😉

...

If you still encounter problems and you want us to join the troubleshooting fun it's important to share the following information:

3600+B450
1 How was the board behaving when the system didn't boot for the first time?
Does it show or blink any lights? Do the fans spin, stuff like that.

2 Did your 3600+B450 "just work" after you flashed BIOS 7C02v19?

3 When your system refused to boot 5 days later,
did your hardware combo behave the same way as when you tried 1?

We would  need the same detailed account of your 1600+450 and 3600+350 combo.

...

I am always highly suspect of any hardware that is in a quantum state of bricked and unbricked.

I hope that your hardware is fine!
-Ype

This post was modified 10 months ago by Ype

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F7GOS
(@f7gos)
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July 24, 2019 05:38  

Have a few Asrock boards updated to run Ryzen 3000 and all worked great.

On my B450M Steel legend it was updated with a Ryzen 5 2400G

On the X370 Killer SLI I used an Athlon 240GE and again, updated to latest bios as normal and then it was just drop in the Zen 2 chip and away we go.

MSI B350 board also updated to the latest bios too with no issues. 

While I love the idea of CPU-less bios updates, I always have something like the Athlon on hand to make any issues easier to diagnose. 

 

Feel Free to check out the F7GOS youtube channel.
www.youtube.com/c/F7GOS


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Olle P
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July 25, 2019 06:59  
Posted by: Ype

I presume you bought your son this motherboard:
https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/B450-TOMAHAWK
And that you are using BIOS 7C02v19

Hi Ype.

Yes, that's the Tomahawk motherboard (not the updated version with extended BIOS memory).

As for BIOS version we've tried V18 (which is the one that worked for a while), V19 beta, and V19 release (the one you point at).

The behaviour when it doesn't work (before as well as now, no matter what BIOS version) is that immediately after power on the "bad CPU" troubleshooting LED turns on and stay on until the power is cut. Fans (case, GPU and CPU) run normally, background LED is on. No signal to the monitor.

When it worked it was plain sailing directly. Not even the several minutes of waiting for the motherboard to interact with the CPU during the first time initialization as I experienced with the Gigabyte board.

My Gigabyte board is updated with the latest BIOS, so if the new CPU is okay it should work directly.


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Ype
 Ype
(@ype)
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July 25, 2019 07:18  

Yo Olle P,

Thanks for the update!

Sounds like you got all your bases covered.
Would love to hear how it all turns out.

Good luck!
Ype


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F7GOS
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July 25, 2019 08:16  

Hopefully you get it all sorted out 🙂

Feel Free to check out the F7GOS youtube channel.
www.youtube.com/c/F7GOS


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Olle P
(@olle-p)
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July 31, 2019 16:09  

This evening I finally took a shot at the problem again.

1. Testing my older CPU on the new motherboard allowed me to enter BIOS with no problems. (No storage/OS attached.)

2. The new CPU on my older board took some while to start, but then entered Windows seemingly without problems.
After about a minute the video signal got erratic though. Went off for a few seconds before returning, stayed on for some 5-10 seconds before disappearing again, and so on until I restarted the computer.
After reboot it seemed to run flawless until I turned it off some 15 minutes later.

3. With the old CPU on the new board I used M-flash to update the BIOS to version 1A (that must have been published since yesterday). Felt good to actually see what was happening.
Switched CPU again, and this time the new CPU ran without any problem.

I'll let my son install the new motherboard in his computer when he returns home this weekend. Then we'll see if the combo stays functional for more than a week with the new BIOS...

I started an RMA case with the retailer, to fall back on if the problems come back again. Can't really say that there's an actual flaw with any of the components, but these individuals don't really like each other.
Possible long term solutions (if necessary) are:
* Replace the motherboard.
* Replace the CPU.
* Buy another CPU and use the recently purchased in my computer.


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Ype
 Ype
(@ype)
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August 1, 2019 03:44  

@olle-p
Glad to hear that you're making progress.
I hope the jump from 1003AB to 1003ABB will take care of most of the remaining issues:

"
A more comprehensive solution in the upcoming AGESA 1003ABB is still required for other affected software affected by the same underlying issue. AGESA 1003ABB will appear in production BIOSes when your manufacturer has completed QA testing to ensure stability and reliability. This process typically takes a few weeks.

Finally, AGESA 1003ABB-based BIOSes will also resolve the “Event 17, WHEA-Logger” warnings appearing in the Windows Event Log.
"
https://community.amd.com/community/gaming/blog/2019/07/30/community-update-5-let-s-talk-clocks-voltages-and-destiny-2

Good luck!
-Ype

Edit: there were still some issues with 1003AB but judging from the progress you made it looks like they are on the right track!

This post was modified 10 months ago by Ype

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Olle P
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August 8, 2019 07:56  

Well, it's back to square one. 😣

After my last successful run with the motherboard separated from (most of) the computer it's been waiting to be re-installed. Now six days later it was finally time to do it!

After re-installation the attempt to start the computer failed exactly the same way as before.
Now I hoped it was just a bad battery on the motherboard that had forced the hard coded BIOS to kick in in place of the later version.

Replacing the battery and re-installing the latest BIOS still didn't solve the problem. We tried a few power cycles to see if it would work at least once in a while, but had no success.

Now it's time for a formal reclamation and have the motherboard replaced.


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cog
 cog
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August 9, 2019 06:01  

MSI B450 boards are very popular due to BIOS flashback option, and good VRMs.

But they have a smaller BIOS chip, which means MSI has to make changes from the standard code they get from AMD. I suspect that most of the issues with MSI B450 boards is because of their changes to the BIOS.

They are now making "MAX" variants of their most popular B450 boards, which, as I understand, have a bigger BIOS flash chip, as the only change. This eliminates the possibly risky requirement for them to change AMD code.

I believe they should be able to eventually fix the non-MAX boards, but dependent on about time and resource allocation from MSI management.

I got an MSI B450M Gaming Plus, and 3600. Updated BIOS. It usually fails to boot when cold (powered off for a few hours). But then a reset toggle or two and it boots and runs apparently fine. But I still have it out in parts, waiting to see how the BIOS progress. I have been messing with ram timings, so that may be affecting things. A cold boot has a different memory training procedure.

 

This post was modified 10 months ago 2 times by cog

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Olle P
(@olle-p)
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August 12, 2019 10:00  
Posted by: @cog

... But they have a smaller BIOS chip, which means MSI has to make changes from the standard code they get from AMD. ... They are now making "MAX" variants of their most popular B450 boards, which, as I understand, have a bigger BIOS flash chip, as the only change.

My own Gigabyte mobo also has 16MB of memory for the BIOS, and that doesn't cause any problem (other than that support for the oldest APUs is being revoked by the newer BIOS revisions).


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Olle P
(@olle-p)
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November 1, 2019 10:50  

Update:

Two nights ago I got the Tomahawk up and running. My chosen solution was to buy an additional CPU, an R5 3600, and install that one instead. I've had it around for a while but due to other problems in my family there hasn't been time to try it out until now.
The computer booted just fine with no sign of trouble. 😀 I just hope it will last (much) longer than the previous five days...

So my plan is to use the 3600X in my own computer, but that motherboard began to glitch soon after my last post. 😣 The problem is that it won't hold/use the primary BIOS installed, but revert to the backup BIOS instead.
The backup was installed when the motherboard was manufactured back in spring '17, and is therefore unable to run anything but the first generation Ryzen, and my RAM won't run as fast as with newer RAM either.
* The battery is not to blaim. I've checked it and it's just fine.
* I've had some discussion with Gigabyte's support and got instructions how to update the backup BIOS, using Gigabyte's program EfiFlash that's bundled with each BIOS download. That hasn't worked either because it's a DOS program and though I've tried my best using a bootable USB stick with FreeDOS the only result when I try to run Efiflash is the message "!!! Invalid Command !!!". 😑
* As luck will have it there's still half a year remaining of the warranty period, so I'll now return my mobo to the retailer and hope to get something functional back.


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OrrenHsieh
(@orrenhsieh)
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November 26, 2019 12:35  

Hi...there's a hard limit on 2700x clocks & therefore power draw. Chances are Rzyen 3xxx will easily breeze through 4.5GHz & possibly exceed 5GHz once OCed, a 16 core monstrosity isn't nearly the same beast as 2700x even on a lowly B350 likewise an OCed 8 core 3xxx chip.


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Olle P
(@olle-p)
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January 16, 2020 04:39  

Just a new update on my endeavours:

My son's computer is running fine, but we'll need to adjust the fan settings to avoid it from running full tilt during gaming.

The problems with my own motherboard remain. I had it sent to the retailer's service company that "found no problems" (though I can't see how they failed to find that changes in the BIOS settings don't "survive" the mandatory re-boot).
At least they updated the back-up BIOS so that I can use the R5 3600X, albeit only at all default BIOS settings.

My R5 1600 is sold to a colleague.

Now I'm considering options to replace the motherboard. Was hoping for a release of B550 soon, but that's not going to happen. Going to B450 just seems like a replacement. X470 seems okay, but many cards come with older BIOS and are not that good with the latest Ryzen. Some lower priced X570 seems to be my preferred choice.


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joshepmurray
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February 28, 2020 02:20  

Previous generation motherboards are not flexible enough. the problem is that they don't support always a new generation processor. I was reading an article on Facebook about this topic. So we have to work with an old processor and low capacity RAM. 


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